BTL Blog Comments

Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:42:1264678936 GMT

re pre loading - I agree with the comments that are potentially the best way to "load" is actually to abstain from heavy use.

I've gone from being a regular clubber to a father of an 18 month old....sleep amongst other things is paramount.

I've really found that if I am tired NOTHING makes it work as well as it used to. However give me a big sleep in (i have had 4 in the past 18 months) and a day party followed by another reasonable sleep and its all roses.

send me to AVB, one of my fave DJ's, pretty tired, and it just doesn't work (and that's three or four months between the last party)

From my own experience, generic lifestyle and looking after yourself with sleep, sunlight, good nutrition and keeping fit has been the best pre load advice

recovery - sleep, sunlight, chocolate and a decent walk. sauna and spa can be great the afternoon after too

Thu, 28 Jan 2010 03:20:1264612842 GMT

I think they make a difference. Stimulants in general tend to be a strain on your body, and surely preloading with some multi vitamins, and a few other more specific amino acids and whatnot can't hurt, as long as you are having safe doses of them, and they don't conflict with each other.

As to if they work, it's a hard thing to tell, mainly due to the almost random nature of the stimulants themselves due to content, and also the way it works with the state of your body at the time. Sometimes it feels like it makes a world of difference, and sometimes it doesn't feel like it does anything. Could it be a placebo effect? Does it matter if it is?

Personally I don't like eating much before a big night out, i find it always sits badly in my stomach, and takes away the enjoyment of it.

As for peer organisations recommending pre and post loading, the ones i've read about have always stated it can be a personal thing, and things that work for some people wont work for others. I find it interesting to heard about other people's pre and post routines and see if there is anything worthwhile in each. I don't think there is any magical "this is how you should pre load" and that is it.

Thu, 26 Nov 2009 00:08:1259158088 GMT

Welcome Dribble to the blog.
Interesting that you like the appetite suppressant properties. Food-aholics may find this a bummer side effect. I have no problems in people reaching for supplements when they can't eat and certainly better-than-nothing. In fact liquid 'appetite starters' may include nutrient rich drinks such as Milo or Sustagen Hospital Formula or a good multivitamin. Although a steam chicken breast and salad sounds way more appetitising!
My concern is that some peer organisations recommend pre and post loading.. based on what?.. god .. now im hungry

Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:56:1259157386 GMT

I think 'eating well' will always be the ideal method of reducing harm by nutrient intake, and I don't think the articles you referred to would put supplements over a healthy diet.
It's just that for me, using any stimulant makes it much harder to eat. (I actually like this side-effect). 'Something healthy' is also last on the list of possibles at this time for me.
There's also often a lot going on over the weekend and the chance to make a steamed chicken breast and salad usually escapes me. If all else is failing, am I wrong to reach for a few supplements?

Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:17:1258924656 GMT

Hi Bettlebase. Welcome to the chat.
Your right and as i mentioned at the start was "does simply eating well do the trick".
My point is whether or not taking things like antioxidant pills (vit e etc), or stuff like typtophan any better than eating well? the antioxidant theory make plausible sense but why cant we have these as part of a healthy diet rather than from a pill.. my god, i cant believe im saying that as an apothecarist!

Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:34:1258907648 GMT

It makes sense that if you're kind to your body before and after that it will improve your ability to recover - but does it really reduce harm? Is this really just about making people feel better when we know that the damage is being done?

Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:34:1258835670 GMT

Hi DaoistPunk
Nice to hear from you. There are many sensible and great points you make about taking it easy on the drugs and eating well!
As i am towing the evidence line, where is the evidence regarding your comment "...know for sure that post loading does work"?

FYI: the purity of MDMA in Australia and VIC is around 20-30% so purity aint the bestest.
http://www.crimecommission.gov.au/publications/iddr/_files/2007_08/08statistics200708.pdf

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:45:1258667150 GMT

On a science level, yes it may seem unconvincing in the data you have pulled up, but in reality I think preloading can help and know for sure that post loading does work.

I think that anyone concious enough to preload would not be the kind of person that would get too out there

Firstly let define things... Ecstacy in many cases does not contain mdma check out www.ecstasydata.org for a sample of a real menu of what is in pills, combine that with the reduction of mdma found in pills today makes this topic a bit redundant for pills, so lets assuming we are talking about lovely mdma powder,

Having said that it isnt so much about pre loading, the best way to pre load is to take a break from it for a while, I would continue to supplement with tryptophan and tryptophan containing foods,

On another note, dont worry about preloading and get the dosage right, start with a standard dosage and have a half dosage ready for about 3 hours into the experiencce that will prolong the experience but always have supplementation for after and also a good meal!!!

Instead of preloading one would consider antioxidants to protect the brain from neurotoxicity, vit e, grapeseed extract and many more,

I say pre and post load in every way possible be it through supplements, food and introspection of the experience, enjoy yourselves, the more conscious effort you put into the experience the more you will gain therefore the less you will need to take it......

Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:28:1258565304 GMT

More info on Tryptophan and Magnesium

TRYTOPHAN
Technical info

The plasma half-life ranges from 1.14 to 2.85 hours
A dose of 250 mg/kg (that’s 17.5g for 70kg adult!), serotonin increases by less than 2-fold

[reference: Micromedex]

Translated and comments:

Tryptophan stays at only reasonable levels in the blood for only 2 hrs (likely converted to serotonin) so if you pre-load early (say 11pm), is it still around at the time your most depleted ie early morning/next day??
Tryptophan and ecstasy places users at risk of serotonin syndrome (can be life threatening)
Massive doses (17.5g) resulted in less than double the levels of serotonin in the blood. So large doses do not necessarily mean more serotonin?

One interesting and complex study showed Tryptophan loading

Did not influence motor speed, but resulted in lack of motor coordination
Individuals who received loading after being depleted, motor tasks slower
impairments in cognition under the influence of tryptophan were attributable to general malaise
several participants made comments that suggested the presence of mild dissociative symptoms including feeling ‘spacey’ or ‘like I’m in a bubble’
resulted in impaired fine motor performance and in an inability to maintain negative (sad) affective content in working memory.

In conclusion, the findings lend further support to the hypothesis that increasing serotonin levels may lead to working memory impairments [note the people in this study were not drug users so hard to translate data to its effects in drug users]

Reference: Monica Luciana M et al. Effects of tryptophan loading on verbal, spatial and affective working memory functions in healthy adults. Journal of Psychopharmacology, Vol. 15, No. 4, 219-230 (2001)

MAGNESIUM

Lastly the current recommended doses of magnesium for “relieving jaw clenching” was cited as 300-500mg. Using current tablets (eg MagMin, 500mg = about 1.7mmol Magnesium) which is a drop in the ocean in relation to the total amount of Mg you have in the body. Ie its unlikely the dose is enough and larger doses likely to result in diarrhoea which then depletes more electrolytes.

IM NOT YET CONVINCED

Do people who pre-load place themselves under more harm because they think they are "protected"?